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Post by elijin on May 21, 2009 17:38:07 GMT 8
Apparently we have mis-read and have applied the wrong rules for dying. The following is lifted wholesale from the PHB, pg 295:
DEATH AND DYING
✦ Dying: When your hit points drop to 0 or fewer, you fall unconscious and are dying. Any additional damage you take continues to reduce your current hit point total until your character dies.
✦ Death Saving Throw: When you are dying, you need to make a saving throw at the end of your turn each round. The result of your saving throw determines how close you are to death.
Lower than 10: You slip one step closer to death. If you get this result three times before you take a rest, you die.
10–19: No change.
20 or higher: Spend a healing surge. When you do so, you are considered to have 0 hit points, and then your healing surge restores hit points as normal. You are no longer dying, and you are conscious but still prone. If you roll 20 or higher but have no healing surges left expressed as a negative number, your condition doesn’t change.
✦ Death: When you take damage that reduces your current hit points to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, your character dies.
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Post by elijin on May 21, 2009 17:45:23 GMT 8
I am puzzled.
Question 1:
Regarding the "no change" part.. Does that mean we keep re-rolling our saving throws until we hit 20 or higher? meaning to say we have a 5% chance of coming back to conciousness, and a whopping 45% chance of becoming dead for each roll.
Question 2:
Upon getting 20 or higher, we spend a healing surge to get 0 hit points. If we do not have 2nd wind left, how do we spend another healing surge to "restore hit points as normal"?
Question 3:
Upon getting 20 or higher, and if we have no healing surges left, we are pretty screwed right?
Question 4:
From the skill Heal, we have this standard action called "First Aid". This skill allows us to:
Stabilize the Dying: Make a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize an adjacent dying character. If you succeed, the character can stop making death saving throws until he or she takes damage. The character’s current hit point total doesn’t change as a result of being stabilized.
Hence that means that unless we roll a d20 to stabilize our ownself, we need someone to make a heal check to stabilize us correct?
fyi, in the 3.5ed, this is somewhat similar. But instead of rolling saving throws, once you have -1 hit points, every round unless you roll a 19 or 20, u take -1 hit point. Once you have -10 hit points, you are dead.
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 22, 2009 2:42:11 GMT 8
Ok... I've made a thorough re-reading of the death situations.
Firstly, when your PC is reduced to 0 HP or less, he falls unconscious. Any reduction of his HP to the negative value of his bloodied HP would mean the PC falls dead. And if the PC fails his death saving throws three times, he is also dead.
So, in the event if the PC rolls a 10 - 19, he is considered to stall his death for a moment. Therefore, there is no change to his death situation.
If the PC rolls a 20, he can use a healing surge and recover HP equal to his healing surge value and it is calculated as though he has 0 HP. The sick part is if he has no healing surge... if the PC has no healing surge, his condition is considered to have no change and must continue making the death saving throws. [In the event if the PC has used his Second Wind, he can still spend a healing surge to recover the HP, because that is not considered as using his Second Wind, but considered as surviving death.]
So, what if your PC rolls a 20 and has no healing surge? An ally has to use a Heal check [DC 15] on you so as to stabilise your PC. When your PC is stabilised, he does not need to make any death saving throws until he suffers further dmg. Which means if his HP is -10, it remains as -10 and it is possible for him to suffer more damage which would kill him. Subsequently, the ally has to use another Heal Check [DC 10] to allow your PC to make use of his Second Wind, but because your PC has no Second Wind left, he regains 1 HP. If the ally does not wish to use a heal check to let your PC use his Second Wind, he can help your PC consume a healing potion, which would let you recover HP to 1 if you have no healing surges left.
My monsters would not attack an unconscious PC, unless it is an intelligent evil NPC... however, if my monsters use area attacks.. your unconscious PC would suffer the same dmg...
Any further clarifications on the matter, we shall review it on the next session.
Elijin, thanx for raising this point up.
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Mobius
New Member
Mage
"For me, the gates will open."
Posts: 24
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Post by Mobius on May 24, 2009 1:39:39 GMT 8
I say the best bet is to administer a potion ASAP to any dying PCs. Wanna roll a 20 can wait long long ah, since we hardly have any positive modifiers for saving rolls. Problem is potions are expensive. 50 gp can buy me a level 1 ritual.
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 24, 2009 14:43:31 GMT 8
And to think when you get a reward of 200gp, you snort at it as pathetic money...
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Mobius
New Member
Mage
"For me, the gates will open."
Posts: 24
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Post by Mobius on May 24, 2009 20:04:30 GMT 8
It is pathetic. Add a few zeros behind.
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 25, 2009 10:36:35 GMT 8
Sorry, I am just following the blueprints in the DMG. Although, the rule of all DMGs is that DM can over-rule any rule, but I just love the current blueprints for DM-ing now. So, whether pathetic or not, the money increases as the level increase... at a slow rate.
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Post by elijin on May 25, 2009 13:04:26 GMT 8
I know I'm shooting myself in the foot this way cos eventually these rules will be applied to me, but like we all agreed, let's try to follow the rules as much as possible to our understanding. If the PC rolls a 20, he can use a healing surge and recover HP equal to his healing surge value and it is calculated as though he has 0 HP. Regarding this, from what I understand from the rules, its 2 healing surges to get back to more than 0HP right? 1 healing surge when you roll a 20, to get you back to 0HP, and another healing surge is required to get you to more than 0HP. [In the event if the PC has used his Second Wind, he can still spend a healing surge to recover the HP, because that is not considered as using his Second Wind, but considered as surviving death.] So when we roll a 20, we can spend 2 healing surges immediately? 1 to restore to 0HP and another to restore normal HP. because I dun think other than Second Wind are we allowed to use a healing surge in an encounter. Subsequently, the ally has to use another Heal Check [DC 10] to allow your PC to make use of his Second Wind, but because your PC has no Second Wind left, he regains 1 HP. I think the Heal Check to allow to use Second Wind is only when the PC has Second Wind. It is meant to be such that the PC doesn't have to spend a standard action to use his Second Wind, so that the PC can do other things. If he has no Second Wind that the Heal check is useless. If the ally does not wish to use a heal check to let your PC use his Second Wind, he can help your PC consume a healing potion, which would let you recover HP to 1 if you have no healing surges left. I also dont think you can use a potion in the event you have no healing surges left since the requirement for using a potion is to spend a healing surge, but instead of recovering your healing surge value, you recover only the amount specified on the potion. My take on the entire thing is, basically death is something to scare the helpless shit out of PCs and make the PC dying very helpless unless someone goes to stabilize the PC. It seems like it is also design to ensure we use our tools correctly i.e. healing surges so we always must ensure we have at least 2 for such purposes. |
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 25, 2009 17:01:02 GMT 8
Ah... I got all the answers that you seek, and it can be found right in the PHB if we really sit through and read it analytically.
First...
[Regarding this, from what I understand from the rules, its 2 healing surges to get back to more than 0HP right? 1 healing surge when you roll a 20, to get you back to 0HP, and another healing surge is required to get you to more than 0HP.]
Refer to pg. 295 of the PHB and look under the table Death and Dying. Under the Death Saving Throw, look at the text when you roll a 20 or higher. It states that 'Spend a healing surge. When you do so, you are considered to have 0 HP, and then your healing surge restores HP as normal.
Which means to say, you only spend one healing surge... When you survive death, you restore your HP from 0, not from the negative value. So, this answers the 2nd question, you only spend one healing surge when you roll a 20.
Second Wind is an ability that lets you spend a healing surge when you are conscious. When you are unconcious, or slipping towards death, spending a healing surge doesn't count as using your Second Wind. If such is the case, they would have said your PC uses his Second Wind when he rolls a 20, but they said, spend a healing surge.
Please do take note that Second Wind is an ability that allows you to use a healing surge in combat. It works as an encounter power, and therefore, there are other situations that might warrant your PC to spend a healing surge without using his Second Wind.
It is correct that a Heal check allows a PC to use his Second Wind without that same PC having to use a standard action. But in the case of life and death, when a PC is unconcious and an ally uses a Heal check on him, the unconscious PC regains 1 HP if he does not have any healing surges left.
Refer to pg. 295, look at the table under Dealing a Dying Character; it states that 'If the healing effect requires you to spend a healing surge but you have none left, you restored to 1 HP.'
And you can use a healing potion instead of a Heal check. On the same page, 295 in the PHB under Healing the Dying, one sentence says it all - 'WHEN YOU ARE DYING, ANY HEALING RESTORES YOU TO AT LEAST 1 HP'.
The catch word here is 'at least', therefore, if you stabilize an unconscious ally, and you administer a healing potion to the unconscious ally, he regains at least 1 HP if he has no healing surges left.
Well, if you think about it... it seems that, to the contrary, it is more difficult to die in 4th ed. All you need to ensure is that an ally is always nearby to stabilize your unconscious PC, and have handful of healing potions. And even if your PC dies... Mobius just needs to cast Tenser's Floating Disk; and the dead PC can be transported to a nearby city and resurrected back to life.
So, therefore, this time round, I will ensure that death saving throws are closely adhered to. It seems that I have been overlooking the death situations and PCs have been springing back to life when they roll more than 10... when actually its 20 and above they need to hit~! In the event if your PC dies, you can either roll up a new character if you have been waiting for the opportunity, or I can always try to ensure your PC is resurrected somehow.
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Post by elijin on May 25, 2009 21:41:40 GMT 8
oops miss out on reading that part. So correct me if I'm wrong: My healing surge value is 9. When I am at -7 HP, I keep rolling my death saving throws. If my roll score is 20 and above, I spend a healing surge to get to 9 hit points. correct? Also, if I have been administered a heal check to stabilize, I am still at -7hp but I don't have to roll the death saving throw. I can only be conscious if someone gaving me a healing potion, or cast a healing spell on me, correct? One last thing, I agree on everything you said except for this part. But in the case of life and death, when a PC is unconcious and an ally uses a Heal check on him, the unconscious PC regains 1 HP if he does not have any healing surges left. I still don't think the Heal check to Use Second Wind is for dying PCs who already used their Second Wind. Under Conditions (Pg 277), under Dying it says you are unconscious. Under Unconscious, it says "You can't take actions". To use Second Wind is a standard action, and the Heal skill for "Use Second Wind" check says it allows a character to use his Second Wind without any actions. So, my point is, if the PC has used his Second Wind, when he is dying, this Heal skill check to "Use Second Wind" cannot be used on him, since he has no more Second Wind left. If he is dying and hasn't used his Second Wind, then it can apply to him. |
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 26, 2009 2:06:50 GMT 8
What you have said is correct regarding the first part.
As for your point on Healing a PC who does not have a Second Wind left. I understand your point and I am getting to see it more clearly.
Therefore, to put it simply, if a PC has a Second Wind left but no healing surges, he is alive with 1 HP.
However, if the unconscious PC has healing surges, but he has used up his Second Wind, he is screwed. Unless the allies administer healing potions to the PC. And if the allies don't have any healing potions, the PC is double-screwed.
But with that said, it seems correct that a an unconscious PC will not be able to use his healing surges despite being healed by an ally because the unconscious PC has used up his Second Wind.
But, there is a clause, on pg 295 of the PHB, under Healing the Dying, it states that 'When you are dying, any healing restores you to at least 1 HP'.
So, in this case, when an unconscious PC is healed by an ally, and the PC does not have any Second Wind left, wouldn't he still be entitled to spend a healing surge?
To me, my interpretation is that the PC will still be able to spend the healing surge even if he has used up his Second Wind. Because he is dying, and any healing would at least restore him to 1 HP.
Players to read through and provide feedbacks on these, thanks!
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Post by elijin on May 26, 2009 13:27:20 GMT 8
haha I think you are getting confused by 1) Second Wind and healing surges and 2) Heal Skill Checks and magical Healing effects and 3) me and 4) you sort of miss the point.  Ok first thing is, Second Wind and healing surges are 2 different things. Second Wind, like you mention is an encounter power to use a healing surge during battle. Healing surges, on the other hand, think of it like mana, or points. Sometimes to activate an item, or something else that is related to healing, we use healing surges. Every character has a number of healing surges. Second thing. First Aid is a HEAL SKILL check that a PC can administer to another PC. Under First Aid there's 3 actions that you can do: Stabilize the Dying, Use Second Wind and Grant Saving Throw. Do not confuse the HEAL SKILL check with Healing cast from a spell, i.e. Healing word from the cleric. ok that settled, now, your question is: The answer is YES. Like you mention in your previous post, as stated in the PHB, any healing will allow the PC to come back to 1hp. Or he can spend a healing surge to restore HP. Yes you are correct again. PC can spend healing surges as long as they are allowed to. However, MY question IS: Can a PC administer the Heal SKILL check to USE SECOND WIND on a dying PC when the dying PC has no more second wind? I agreed with your previous post that if a dying PC still has his Second Wind, this heal SKILL check can be done. However, if a PC has no more Second Wind, my interpretation is that this heal SKILL check is redundant, hence the new skill check as I suggested for Resuscitating the dying. |
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 26, 2009 15:18:44 GMT 8
I understand entirely what you have been saying, Gond. And I understand the Heal skill, and the healing powers from other means. Now, the crux of the argument is can an ally still render first aid to an unconscious ally if that unconscious PC has already used up his Second Wind.
That has been the crux of the argument from the previous posts. Technically, it wouldn't be appplicable, since the unconscious ally has already used up his Second Wind.
But, I am looking at the areas where it is not so definite. Any ally can administer the Heal skill, not necessarily when the PC is unconscious. So, of course, when the PC is alive, he wouldn't be able to use his Second Wind through a Heal Skill if he has used up his Second Wind.
Now, if the PC is unconscious and dying, can he still used his Second Wind even though he has used up his Second Wind?
And I would just quote this -- on pg 295 of the PHB, under Healing the Dying, it states that 'When you are dying, any healing restores you to at least 1 HP'.
The word is any healing. The use of Heal Skill to let an unconscious PC use his Second Wind is still a form of healing? No? So, under such dire circumstances, wouldn't the PC still be back to live with 1HP even though he has no Second Wind left.
I understand what you are trying to say, and of course I am aware of Second Wind and healing surges. Second Wind is an ability that allows you to use a healing surge in an encounter.
The point now is 'any healing restores you to 1 HP'; and the fact that when an unconscious PC has already used up his Second Wind, can an ally still use Heal despite the fact that Heal only just allows an ally to use his Second Wind?
I think we need to check with the rest of the party on their opinions. Because we both know what we are talking about, it's just a matter of different perspectives on the same issue.
You take the stand that the unconscious PC cannot use his Second Wind if he has used his Second Wind already, therefore the Heal skill is redundant.
For me, I believe the PC can still recover 1 HP because 'any healing restores you to 1 HP when you are dying'.
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 26, 2009 15:23:13 GMT 8
Come to think of it, if a dying PC would still recover 1 HP if he has no healing surges left; why can't the same dying PC recover with 1 HP if he has used up his Second Wind? Seriously, I think that clause on pg 295 of the PHB, under Healing the Dying -- 'When you are dying, any healing restores you to at least 1 HP'; is the disclaimer for all such arguments on healing.
Because if a PC is restored to 1 HP despite having no healing surges even if the healing power requires him to spend a healing surge, then wouldn't it also make sense for the PC to be able to restore himself back to life with 1 HP even if he has used up his Second Wind earlier?
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Post by thedungeonmaster on May 28, 2009 1:25:16 GMT 8
Ok at last we have finalised and agreed upon the situation. Although, do take note.
When an ally uses Heal skill on a dying PC who has no Second Wind, he cannot be healed. He can only be stabilized at DC 15
And when a dying PC rolls a 20, he spends a healing surge to regain his HP; even if he has used up his Second Wind. HOWEVER, if the dying PC has no healing surges... when he rolls a 20, his condition doesn't change... he does not recover with 1 HP.
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